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	<title>Comments on: Levon Ter-Petrossian Ready to Negotiate?</title>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 06:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ??????? ???????????? ???????? ???? ???-?????????? ???????? ???? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ? ????????? &#171; ???????? ????????? ?</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7130</link>
		<dc:creator>??????? ???????????? ???????? ???? ???-?????????? ???????? ???? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ? ????????? &#171; ???????? ????????? ?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 11:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7130</guid>
		<description>[...] ??????????? ?????????????? ? ?????? ???? ????????? ?????????, ????????? ?????? ????????????, ?? «????????? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] ??????????? ?????????????? ? ?????? ???? ????????? ?????????, ????????? ?????? ????????????, ?? «????????? [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Divided blogosphere on united opposition leader Levon Ter-Petrossian&#8217;s conciliatory speech &#171; The Armenian Observer Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7127</link>
		<dc:creator>Divided blogosphere on united opposition leader Levon Ter-Petrossian&#8217;s conciliatory speech &#171; The Armenian Observer Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 08:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7127</guid>
		<description>[...] a more comprehensive analysis, the Caucasus Knot speculates, that &#8220;the radical opposition appears ready to negotiate with the authorities in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] a more comprehensive analysis, the Caucasus Knot speculates, that &#8220;the radical opposition appears ready to negotiate with the authorities in [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Armenia &#38; the South Caucasus &#124; The Caucasian Knot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Press Review: Ter-Petrossian&#8217;s Speech</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7119</link>
		<dc:creator>Armenia &#38; the South Caucasus &#124; The Caucasian Knot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Press Review: Ter-Petrossian&#8217;s Speech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7119</guid>
		<description>[...] carries a variety of responses to the speech made by former president Levon Ter-Petrossian at the 2 May congress of political forces supporting his bid to return to power. Papers directly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] carries a variety of responses to the speech made by former president Levon Ter-Petrossian at the 2 May congress of political forces supporting his bid to return to power. Papers directly [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7117</link>
		<dc:creator>Onnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 13:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7117</guid>
		<description>Uzogh, I would suppose that it would require all sides just understanding that Armenia is in a very precarious situation now and that for its future everyone should attempt to find some common ground.

Is that naive? Yes, I admit it that it probably is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uzogh, I would suppose that it would require all sides just understanding that Armenia is in a very precarious situation now and that for its future everyone should attempt to find some common ground.</p>
<p>Is that naive? Yes, I admit it that it probably is.</p>
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		<title>By: Uzogh</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7116</link>
		<dc:creator>Uzogh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 09:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7116</guid>
		<description>RE: Onnik 05.04.08 / 7pm
I agree with your point. But it is impossible.
How do you see this dialog? With civil society, parliamentary parties, non-parliamentary parties, non-partisan groups, etc???
Just remember - while government is trying to imitate the dialog, the LTP coalition is trying to make any dialog to fail. And if the government will win Raffi's votes in PACE, LTP is out.
As far as I understood government will use parliament as main place for dialog. I think that there will be some legislative initiatives, up to law on opposition. 
Anyway - there's commision on PACE resolution, and they are working. AFAIK they will release something on May 10. Let's wait and see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Onnik 05.04.08 / 7pm<br />
I agree with your point. But it is impossible.<br />
How do you see this dialog? With civil society, parliamentary parties, non-parliamentary parties, non-partisan groups, etc???<br />
Just remember - while government is trying to imitate the dialog, the LTP coalition is trying to make any dialog to fail. And if the government will win Raffi&#8217;s votes in PACE, LTP is out.<br />
As far as I understood government will use parliament as main place for dialog. I think that there will be some legislative initiatives, up to law on opposition.<br />
Anyway - there&#8217;s commision on PACE resolution, and they are working. AFAIK they will release something on May 10. Let&#8217;s wait and see.</p>
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		<title>By: Aram</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7113</link>
		<dc:creator>Aram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 15:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7113</guid>
		<description>For good of for bad, I think that consensus in society will be built around good governance (or fail due to its absence).  I think the relationship with LTP (or even with Heritage, but I agree with Uzogh's point about Heritage having more importance and stature than LTP) is secondary.

People want to see improvement in their lives and better governance.  If that happens, LTP's crying on the sideline becomes irrelevant.  If the government fails, then LTP, Heritage, and others who can rally the discontents will gather steam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For good of for bad, I think that consensus in society will be built around good governance (or fail due to its absence).  I think the relationship with LTP (or even with Heritage, but I agree with Uzogh&#8217;s point about Heritage having more importance and stature than LTP) is secondary.</p>
<p>People want to see improvement in their lives and better governance.  If that happens, LTP&#8217;s crying on the sideline becomes irrelevant.  If the government fails, then LTP, Heritage, and others who can rally the discontents will gather steam.</p>
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		<title>By: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7112</link>
		<dc:creator>Onnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7112</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But there’s a competition between the forces, that would like to represent opposition in this dialog. It is LTP and Heritage. Heritage is parliamentary opposition, and if Sargsyan will begin dialog with Heritage - LTP will lose everything.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Uzogh, if you're saying that Ter-Petrossian will lose everything if Heritage become too involved, does it work the other way around too? I mean, Heritage stand to lose all the work they've put in to get to where they are as a more mature opposition political force?

Regardless, while I admire the work of Heritage and the way it has acted (although I was disappointed by its decision to eventually back Ter-Petrossian, but understand why it did and at least recognize the democratic nature of how it came to that decision), I am not sure that Heritage can become the "sole voice" of the opposition even if it is the only party in parliament.

At the same time, I also don't believe that Ter-Petrossian has any right to take on that role either which is why I can only refer to him as the leader of the "radical opposition." Basically, many, many people who oppose Serge also oppose Levon and certainly didn't vote for him. 

Anyway, I think we are at the stage where what is important now is consensus in society, and I know it's easier said than done, but I think that partisan politics needs to be put aside. This is about Armenia's future direction, in my opinion, and not even about who should be president.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But there’s a competition between the forces, that would like to represent opposition in this dialog. It is LTP and Heritage. Heritage is parliamentary opposition, and if Sargsyan will begin dialog with Heritage - LTP will lose everything.</p></blockquote>
<p>Uzogh, if you&#8217;re saying that Ter-Petrossian will lose everything if Heritage become too involved, does it work the other way around too? I mean, Heritage stand to lose all the work they&#8217;ve put in to get to where they are as a more mature opposition political force?</p>
<p>Regardless, while I admire the work of Heritage and the way it has acted (although I was disappointed by its decision to eventually back Ter-Petrossian, but understand why it did and at least recognize the democratic nature of how it came to that decision), I am not sure that Heritage can become the &#8220;sole voice&#8221; of the opposition even if it is the only party in parliament.</p>
<p>At the same time, I also don&#8217;t believe that Ter-Petrossian has any right to take on that role either which is why I can only refer to him as the leader of the &#8220;radical opposition.&#8221; Basically, many, many people who oppose Serge also oppose Levon and certainly didn&#8217;t vote for him. </p>
<p>Anyway, I think we are at the stage where what is important now is consensus in society, and I know it&#8217;s easier said than done, but I think that partisan politics needs to be put aside. This is about Armenia&#8217;s future direction, in my opinion, and not even about who should be president.</p>
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		<title>By: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7111</link>
		<dc:creator>Onnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7111</guid>
		<description>Uzogh, well, I suppose I would argue that this is more than just about Levon Ter-Petrossian and the opposition. It is about the democratization of Armenia and preventing such manifestations of open and actual/potential violent confrontations in the political process.

On that basis, when we consider the PACE recommendations I consider that the government should be discussing with all political groups, civil society, international structures etc. When it comes to negotiating I don't consider that Ter-Petrossian represents society or those opposed to Sargsyan although he does admittedly represent a large number of them.

Therefore, I would consider that negotiating with Ter-Petrossian should be about measures necessary to defuse tensions in society, but that the actual mechanisms to do so should involve everyone. Unfortunately, we are in this situation because in its present form, parliament is unable to represent the various parts of society simply because it doesn't represent them properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uzogh, well, I suppose I would argue that this is more than just about Levon Ter-Petrossian and the opposition. It is about the democratization of Armenia and preventing such manifestations of open and actual/potential violent confrontations in the political process.</p>
<p>On that basis, when we consider the PACE recommendations I consider that the government should be discussing with all political groups, civil society, international structures etc. When it comes to negotiating I don&#8217;t consider that Ter-Petrossian represents society or those opposed to Sargsyan although he does admittedly represent a large number of them.</p>
<p>Therefore, I would consider that negotiating with Ter-Petrossian should be about measures necessary to defuse tensions in society, but that the actual mechanisms to do so should involve everyone. Unfortunately, we are in this situation because in its present form, parliament is unable to represent the various parts of society simply because it doesn&#8217;t represent them properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Uzogh</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7110</link>
		<dc:creator>Uzogh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 12:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7110</guid>
		<description>Onnik, while I agree with your thought from 05.04.08 / 1pm comment, I would like to add another aspect. Right now government tries to do its best to comply with PACE resolution. And the issue of dialog is crucial for them. But there's a competition between the forces, that would like to represent opposition in this dialog. It is LTP and Heritage. Heritage is parliamentary opposition, and if Sargsyan will begin dialog with Heritage - LTP will lose everything. Moreover - Sargsyan has a lot of thing to offer to a parliamentary group, and almost nothing to offer to a political force, that is not represented in parliament. 

The question now is who will be that party, who will be engaged in that dialog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Onnik, while I agree with your thought from 05.04.08 / 1pm comment, I would like to add another aspect. Right now government tries to do its best to comply with PACE resolution. And the issue of dialog is crucial for them. But there&#8217;s a competition between the forces, that would like to represent opposition in this dialog. It is LTP and Heritage. Heritage is parliamentary opposition, and if Sargsyan will begin dialog with Heritage - LTP will lose everything. Moreover - Sargsyan has a lot of thing to offer to a parliamentary group, and almost nothing to offer to a political force, that is not represented in parliament. </p>
<p>The question now is who will be that party, who will be engaged in that dialog.</p>
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		<title>By: Aram</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7109</link>
		<dc:creator>Aram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 08:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7109</guid>
		<description>I agree Onnik with the various aspects and questions you point out, though I think that the "what-if" and the "but-for" arguments are different in principle, as the former is more of a tool for hypothesizing or philosophizing while the latter is used as a legal argument for causality.

In any case, I wasn't presenting the argument to lay 100% of the blame on LTP, though applying the western legal practice of the but-for argument seems to have validity in the March 1 case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Onnik with the various aspects and questions you point out, though I think that the &#8220;what-if&#8221; and the &#8220;but-for&#8221; arguments are different in principle, as the former is more of a tool for hypothesizing or philosophizing while the latter is used as a legal argument for causality.</p>
<p>In any case, I wasn&#8217;t presenting the argument to lay 100% of the blame on LTP, though applying the western legal practice of the but-for argument seems to have validity in the March 1 case.</p>
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		<title>By: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7108</link>
		<dc:creator>Onnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 08:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7108</guid>
		<description>sem63, actually I spoke to a very senior diplomat on Friday evening and asked him what he thought of the congress. He was pretty pessimistic and said, they just keep on saying the same things -- new elections -- which the government isn't going to agree to.

So, it's possible that RFE/RL are purposely trying to make Ter-Petrossian look flexible while the government isn't (notice, RFE/RL always mentions the release of "political prisoners" as being a CE demand but has so far NOT mentioned that the opposition recognizing the constitutional court ruling is as well).

On the other hand, if Ter-Petrossian did realize that his movement is running out of steam the further the election is in people's minds, I wouldn't expect him to do anything other than do something like this i.e. wind things down gradually in order not to lose face.

I would also suppose that the greater the demands, the better your position is in any negotiations. 

Placing the blame almost solely on Kocharian and giving Sargsyan more room to be flexible is at least a better situation than before. Let's just not mention that Ter-Petrossian's people were precisely making this an issue of Sargsyan and his brother before the election. 

Still, that's politics, I suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sem63, actually I spoke to a very senior diplomat on Friday evening and asked him what he thought of the congress. He was pretty pessimistic and said, they just keep on saying the same things &#8212; new elections &#8212; which the government isn&#8217;t going to agree to.</p>
<p>So, it&#8217;s possible that RFE/RL are purposely trying to make Ter-Petrossian look flexible while the government isn&#8217;t (notice, RFE/RL always mentions the release of &#8220;political prisoners&#8221; as being a CE demand but has so far NOT mentioned that the opposition recognizing the constitutional court ruling is as well).</p>
<p>On the other hand, if Ter-Petrossian did realize that his movement is running out of steam the further the election is in people&#8217;s minds, I wouldn&#8217;t expect him to do anything other than do something like this i.e. wind things down gradually in order not to lose face.</p>
<p>I would also suppose that the greater the demands, the better your position is in any negotiations. </p>
<p>Placing the blame almost solely on Kocharian and giving Sargsyan more room to be flexible is at least a better situation than before. Let&#8217;s just not mention that Ter-Petrossian&#8217;s people were precisely making this an issue of Sargsyan and his brother before the election. </p>
<p>Still, that&#8217;s politics, I suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7107</link>
		<dc:creator>Onnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 08:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7107</guid>
		<description>Aram, the problem with "but-for's" and "what if's" is that they can be continually applied and more problematically, in retrospect. 

For example, what if the 1996 presidential election wasn't falisifed, what if the 2003 presidential election, or what if the 2007 and 2008 ones weren't?

Or what if the international community had given a damn about democracy building long ago instead of only when it suits them, or what if civil society did at times other than when the US hands outs grants?

Or what if civil society and the media had remained independent, or what if the police had prevented the overnight tent camps in the first place. Or what if the police hadn't made a pig's ear of dispersing the Liberty Square camp on the morning of 1 March.

What if the police were actually trained in crowd control and used tear gas and water cannon instead of moving in on the demonstrators as they did? 

There are many reasons for what happened, and while I do believe Ter-Petrossian bears some responsibility, the government also does too. Actually, I consider that civil society, the media, the international community -- indeed, all of us -- were responsible.

All the problems and all the faults of the government, the opposition, civil society and the media came to a head. I also suspect that we should hope and wait for an independent inquiry that is trusted by all sides before finally concluding why everything happened as it did.

Don't get me wrong. While I consider that in immediate terms it was the dispersal of the opposition camp on 1 March that sparked the clashes, there are many people to blame for getting us to that point as well. On the other hand, it is clear that the way the 1 March clashes were handled by the police was a mess and a total disaster.

It was a major failing, in fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aram, the problem with &#8220;but-for&#8217;s&#8221; and &#8220;what if&#8217;s&#8221; is that they can be continually applied and more problematically, in retrospect. </p>
<p>For example, what if the 1996 presidential election wasn&#8217;t falisifed, what if the 2003 presidential election, or what if the 2007 and 2008 ones weren&#8217;t?</p>
<p>Or what if the international community had given a damn about democracy building long ago instead of only when it suits them, or what if civil society did at times other than when the US hands outs grants?</p>
<p>Or what if civil society and the media had remained independent, or what if the police had prevented the overnight tent camps in the first place. Or what if the police hadn&#8217;t made a pig&#8217;s ear of dispersing the Liberty Square camp on the morning of 1 March.</p>
<p>What if the police were actually trained in crowd control and used tear gas and water cannon instead of moving in on the demonstrators as they did? </p>
<p>There are many reasons for what happened, and while I do believe Ter-Petrossian bears some responsibility, the government also does too. Actually, I consider that civil society, the media, the international community &#8212; indeed, all of us &#8212; were responsible.</p>
<p>All the problems and all the faults of the government, the opposition, civil society and the media came to a head. I also suspect that we should hope and wait for an independent inquiry that is trusted by all sides before finally concluding why everything happened as it did.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong. While I consider that in immediate terms it was the dispersal of the opposition camp on 1 March that sparked the clashes, there are many people to blame for getting us to that point as well. On the other hand, it is clear that the way the 1 March clashes were handled by the police was a mess and a total disaster.</p>
<p>It was a major failing, in fact.</p>
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		<title>By: sem63</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7106</link>
		<dc:creator>sem63</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 06:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7106</guid>
		<description>I definitely agree that the way LTP drew the line between RK and SS in terms of responsibility for the well known events was very interesting, and to me quite unexpected.
But I don't see his call for dialog as a big step forward. He is again applying double standards. The CE resolution calls for action on both sides. LTP of course mentioned what's suggested to the government to do, but claimed that he has no intention of doing what was suggested to them, i.e. accepting the constitutional court decision.
Had he said "We'll accept the constitutional court decision and agree to have dialog with the government if and only if the government does ...(insert CE resolution requests)," that would have been a step forward.

Once again, he gave this 10 page speech the contents of which could have been condensed to 10 lines. Just this once I decided to read the whole speech (on A1+), and reaffirmed my belief that it's a total waste of time to read those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree that the way LTP drew the line between RK and SS in terms of responsibility for the well known events was very interesting, and to me quite unexpected.<br />
But I don&#8217;t see his call for dialog as a big step forward. He is again applying double standards. The CE resolution calls for action on both sides. LTP of course mentioned what&#8217;s suggested to the government to do, but claimed that he has no intention of doing what was suggested to them, i.e. accepting the constitutional court decision.<br />
Had he said &#8220;We&#8217;ll accept the constitutional court decision and agree to have dialog with the government if and only if the government does &#8230;(insert CE resolution requests),&#8221; that would have been a step forward.</p>
<p>Once again, he gave this 10 page speech the contents of which could have been condensed to 10 lines. Just this once I decided to read the whole speech (on A1+), and reaffirmed my belief that it&#8217;s a total waste of time to read those.</p>
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		<title>By: Aram</title>
		<link>http://blog.oneworld.am/2008/05/03/levon-ter-petrossian-ready-to-negotiate/#comment-7105</link>
		<dc:creator>Aram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 04:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.oneworld.am/?p=705#comment-7105</guid>
		<description>One aspect that has been missing from the analysis of the March 1 events is a simple "but-for" argument.  If LTP had not entered the political arena with revving up his followers to confront authorities, dig in and fight, there would not have been deaths on March 1.

Here is an explanation of the argument that I think applies to the events.

The concept of cause and culpability become important here. In the American legal system there are several concepts of cause which are pertinent. One of these is the "but for" argument in determining whether a person created a destructive turn of events and whether he should be made to pay for resultant damages. That is, "but for" a person's committing a certain action, would a second person or group have experienced injury? If the answer is no, then the person initiating that action is held responsible for any damages to the second person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One aspect that has been missing from the analysis of the March 1 events is a simple &#8220;but-for&#8221; argument.  If LTP had not entered the political arena with revving up his followers to confront authorities, dig in and fight, there would not have been deaths on March 1.</p>
<p>Here is an explanation of the argument that I think applies to the events.</p>
<p>The concept of cause and culpability become important here. In the American legal system there are several concepts of cause which are pertinent. One of these is the &#8220;but for&#8221; argument in determining whether a person created a destructive turn of events and whether he should be made to pay for resultant damages. That is, &#8220;but for&#8221; a person&#8217;s committing a certain action, would a second person or group have experienced injury? If the answer is no, then the person initiating that action is held responsible for any damages to the second person.</p>
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